The Apartment Plan

What a sleeze!

What’s so bad about it? You a drink and a dance.

Should have given him a fake number…

There are radio stations that sponsor a number that you can give a guy….the voicemail the guy leaves (if funny) is then played on air. Sounds like this guy was a candidate.

You mean he thought you an easy hussy, after ALL you did was walk up to a strange man, look him in the eye, and drink his drink? Then make out with him, after two minutes?

(Hmph! What kind of girl do you think I AM to go back to your apartment!?)

You’re giving mixed signals, sister. It’s known as being a cock tease– highly coquettish one minute, indignant the next. Act like a wanton slut, you’ll be treated like a wanton slut.

shame him for his evil douchebag ways!

So what kind of drink did Peter have, that you couldn’t tell it was a Guy Drink?

You were flirting with him and let him kiss you right after meeting him. of course he would think you were an easy lay. the guy was probably confused why you declined his invitation. You didn’t even stop him from hugging you so he could press your chest against his or move your necklace so he could have a good look at your cleavage.

A guy in a bar who is only interested in sex? That NEVER happens!

He probably thought you were into it.

Sadder to think there were probably many girls who did indeed escort him back to his flat…

Lisa, what the FUCK is your problem?

I think Lisa is right in this case. I am all for personal freedom and wearing whatever you want but in this case he did not force anything on her. You can’t blame him for thinking she is easy and trying to get into her pants. However I am not saying that he is a good guy either because good guys do not go moving somebody’s necklace for better view. He is not the only one to blame though because she made it seem that it’ was fine with her.

Lisa’s right. It seems that the OP was giving off signals that she, like Peter, was looking for a one-night stand. If that’s not what she was after, what was her intention? I can’t think of another good reason to make out with a boob-ogling stranger in a bar.

What I’m puzzled about is what part of this story the OP considers the bad part. She flirted with this guy and made out with him, and she obviously didn’t mind that he was ogling her cleavage, because not only did she not attempt to stop him, she gave him her number. Was the big problem that he didn’t live in the city, but just rented a place there on weekends? What’s the big deal?

a) my girlfriends drink guy drinks
b) despite being very comfortable with my sexuality, I am at times non assertive in these situations. I am a sub.
c) I am not offended by suggestions that I acted like a cock tease or gave mixed signals. i just tend to reserve the right to go to a bar, kiss a guy and not have sex with him and i would encourage any woman that i care about to reserve the same right. i’m not offended by his assumption that i would have sex with him though, he was just mistaken and i very politely let him know that
d) The part I considered disturbing was that he and his friends rent an apartment in the city when they live only 15 minutes from the city and pretend that it’s where they live to give them a “cutting edge” with the ladies

“Wanton slut”? “Cock tease”? Are you kidding me? It’s called flirting and most people do it. And so what if she was kissing a guy on the dance floor? Kissing isn’t permission for sex. At no point during her story did I read she was after him for a quick lay. What I read was her being flirtatious. Good for her for getting the heck out of there.

No, kissing isn’t implied permission for sex. BUT I do think that a PROPOSITION for sex is allowable after kissing and dancing intimately in public. He didn’t do anything inappropriate. Propositioning sex in the context we have here is not a) unexpected or b) unacceptable. Asking for sex =/= demanding sex.

I was silly and unattached once, and did my fair share of club-kissing, but I didn’t get bent out of shape when one of them invited me home. I just politely said no thanks and found my friends. He didn’t touch her without her permission, he didn’t pressure her into anything, she was a fully consenting, flirting party to the interaction. He asked, she said no thanks, and then gave him her number. What about that is so reprehensible?

That HARLOT, flirting with a man at a bar! How dare she! Jezebel! Slattern! Strumpet!

Clearly she should have sat with her chaperone, ankles demurely crossed, until a suitable gentleman asked to be added to her dance card.

As per usual, chastised for using politically incorrect terminology (the more it happens, the more I’m encouraged to do it, you realize! ).

Flirt, coquette, cocktease– set and subsets.

“Flirt” is general. One can flirt with subtlety and sincerity, or one can flirt out of stupid vanity and thirst for cheap attention. Why use a vague word when I be can more specific?

“Coquette” is woman who teases and lacks sincerity. Applicable? Yup.

“Cocktease” is woman who makes implied sexual promises that she’s not prepared to deliver on. Applicable? Yup.

Katethegreat: “What the FUCK is your problem?” is not a compelling argument for whatever it is you’re arguing… sorry.

How the hell was he staring down your shirt while kissing you? That’s physically impossible.

And Lisa wins the comment trophy today, hands down.

I love how people are acting like those who think the OP was a cocktease are somehow prudes. I haven’t seen any comment that implies that there’s anything wrong with hooking up with a stranger at a bar. If that’s what you’re into, fine by me. The point is that it’s no surprise that Peter invited the OP to go home with him. I don’t see what’s so controversial about that.

Lisa, what the fuck? Kissing someone and giving them your number is not an “implied sexual promise”. I hope you never end up in a situation where your sexual autonomy is called into question in that way if you were raped.

That said, what was wrong with this date. OP flirted, dude flirted back, dude asked OP to come to his apartment, she said no, no harm no foul. Yeah, a little annoying that he tried repeatedly again to get her to come over after the first time she said no, but that could have been easily remedied by a “sorry, not interested, please stop asking” text.

And the argument of “it’s creepy that he has an apartment in the city” is pretty clearly a transparent attempt to make it seem like this story doesn’t suck. What’s wrong with having an apartment in the city, even if it is just for sex? At least based on this experience, he’s not forcing women over there.

@ Everyone – Check out Mere’s comment. Sounds like she is the OP in question and her final point shows that we all missed the boat — She was creeped out by guys that live 15 minutes away renting an apartment on the weekends so they could be cool, suave, and get that “cutting edge.” While not the worst date by any means, I can see her point.

By the “the city” i think OP meant New York City.
This is the only place that I can think of that has the atmosphere douchy enough for people to rent a place downtown to hide the fact that you live in Jersey.

I first thought “London” with her insistence on the use of the word “cheeky” but who knows. Maybe the dudes live in Nampa and want to impress all the Boise, Idaho babes?

Sarah– Your summary ( “kissing someone and giving them your number…”) conveniently leaves out sticky details:

> the extravagantly seductive gesture of drinking a total stranger’s drink whilst gazing into his eyes (“I’m a man eater! Grr!”)

> the steamy make-out session that followed , a whopping 120 seconds later

No implied-promise of sex? Stop being coy. The first action was a deliberate attempt to titillate; the second– considering their brief acquaintance– a declaration of lust.

We’re not discussing forced-sex— your mention rape is is dramatic, but immaterial.

We ARE discussing: female behavior that any reasonable, non-rapist male would read as indication that she’s ready & willing.

Look, I was a young cocktease once myself– I KNOW the game from embarrassing firsthand experience. I’m NOT counseling her stop acting like a tart when the feeling strikes. (Carry on, ladies! It’s stupid good fun, and makes you feel kinda powerful.)

I’m simply suggesting that she– and ALL women– be a little more honest. At least with themselves. You KNOW certain behavior is calculated to give a man a boner… why act all surprised when the boner exhibits itself?

Frankly, I don’t know how men put up with us. Must be the promise of sex.

Lisa, I think you seriously have issues. There is no promise of sex anywhere in her story. On what planet is drinking a guy’s drink and then doing a little kissing guaranteed sex? I don’t understand you and your backwards thinking.

What you don’t understand is English, Kay—- I didn’t use the word “guaranteed”, I said “implied promise of sex”‘.

IMPLY: to suggest, to express or indicate indirectly or by hint

GUARANTEE: A pledge that something will be performed in a specified manner. A promise or an assurance, especially one given in writing

Thank the lord all the “reasonable, non-rapist male[s]” I know don’t take flirtation or making our as an indication that the girl is “ready [and] willing.” If they do, they’re not reasonable, and possibly not non-rapists.

Who else here thinks LisaMay is probably just a bitter, lady-hating dude in disguise?

Kay and Mayfly, to you I say: WTF?

It’s Brisbane, Australia. I get the feeling that our morals are a little looser than in the US, but maybe not so loose as in the UK

In all seriousness, from my experience, it seems like young people in AUS participate in pub culture in essentially the same way that young people do in the UK but people in the UK seem to be a bit more civilised about it. People in AUS can still tend to be quite judgemental of sexually confident women in a way that they just don’t tend to be in the UK.

I’ll reiterate, it was the unnecessarily rented apartment that creeped me out. It seemed a bit calculated.

Mayfly– just because I’m acknowledging facts that both sexes know, but women rarely admit, doesn’t mean I’m not a female. Nice try.

What kind of girl goes to a bar, makes out with a man she doesn’t know, and then doesn’t go back to his place for sex? I could understand if you just flirted with him and wanted to know him better, or threw yourself at him and then went home with him, but making out with a stranger but then saying “no thanks”? Mixed signals, ahoy.

Lisa, slut shaming is wonderful, isn’t it?

As the OP(Mere at 4:55 pm) has already mentioned the bad part of the date wasn’t that he thought she was ready and willing (and thus as you so beautifully put it “a wanton slut”), but that he “rent[ed] an apartment in the city when they live[d] only 15 minutes from the city and pretend[ed] that it’s where they live to give them a “cutting edge” with the ladies.”

Is this skeevy enough for you, or do you feel she has that coming too because she was such a cocktease and behaved like a hussy?

Waffles, she can say no at any time she wants. She doesn’t owe this guy anything. Shocking, I know!

Agreed, Waffles.

My earlier comments weren’t meant to chastise women who are promiscuous– I too can understand being drunk, randy, and then having sex with a virtual stranger.

What I find irritating (and what men must find EXASPERATING) is deliberate blindness to the fact that men take their cues from the signals that women communicate. And, that’s how it SHOULD be— right?

Likely, the guy in this story was behaving with unusual forwardness BECAUSE of the “come-hither” signals she gave– which she didn’t seem to grasp, as if actions don’t have natural consequences.

Give contradictory cues— get unwanted results.

The apartment business is a red herring– so WHAT if a bunch of young guys who party in the city decide to get a convenient nearby crib? It’s called a pied-a-terre. He wasn’t claiming a false address that wasn’t HIS. He DOES live in the city, just during the weekends.

@ Mere…ever been to the states….to Las Vegas? I think you’ll find plenty of loose morals here in the US as well (But, never having been to AUS…I can’t really compare). But this post did remind me of Las Vegas – especially the desperate guys that rent the Corvettes, Lotus Elise’s, Camero’s for hundreds of dollars a day (or thousands if you want a Ferrari/Aston Martin/Lamborghini) just to pick up the ladies.

Lisa, did you get elected as reality monitor or did you just nominate yourself? Why have you randomly assumed it’s a red herring? And why do you get to decide what’s real or not?

I won’t even get into the whole “Hey, if you’ve given him ~*~Mating Signals~*~, you must, must, MUST have sex with them. How will his tender ego ever cope with the disappointment otherwise?”, because it’s insulting to both the OP (not to mention women in general) and the guy in question.

“My earlier comments weren’t meant to chastise women who are promiscuous”

“Wanton slut”, “hussy” and “cocktease” are totally the terms of endearments I use for the loved ones in my life too!

If the OP had argued that she wasn’t looking for a sexual encounter, I would have been as sceptical as you were, but she has gone ahead and said that she is “not offended by his assumption that I would have sex with him”. What more would you have liked? That she go back and have sex with him because she flirted a lot? She doesn’t owe anyone sex at all. This is something basic I thought most people understood by adulthood.

“men take their cues from the signals that women communicate. And, that’s how it SHOULD be— right?”

I completely agree. And later, when she said no, he should have taken the cue.

Jude- He did in fact accept her decision not to go back to his apartment, so your last sentence doesn’t make sense. Unless you mean the fact that he messaged her several times? (Was he off-base in doing so, after she gave him her number, after making out with him?)

So, if the OP WASN’T offended that he was groping her & looking down her top… and WASN’T offended that he invited her back to his apartment, why was it even included in her worst-date story? (Hell, it WAS the story.)

If not, the story becomes: “Met a guy who I kinda liked– until I found out that he’s been known to party and have sex with girls on weekends. The End”. With a little work, it might have been condensed into a haiku.

We appreciate all the comments, but let’s move on. Enjoy the weekend!

Seriously, *move on*?!

“Hell, it WAS the story.”
YES, it seemed that the OP was shocked that the guy would ask her back to his apt. when in fact she (by her own admission) was offended that he and some other guy(s) had an apt. in the city. So now, we can go beyond her behavior and move on to the fact that the guy(s) had rented an apt. to make it more convenient for themselves and the women they convinced to come back to the apt.
NOW we can move on…

p.s. Lisa, no more of trying to egg on the rape apologists, …..please…..I know it’s entertaining, but…

MAYBE he rented an apartment on the weekends so he would have a convenient place to sleep off his drink, without having to drive home or pay for a cab or hop on a ‘roo or hope for a train or whatever the hell people do for transportation in Brisbane.

Lisa is awesome.

Am I the only one that thinks it’s sad that meeting a random guy at a bar and making out with him is now classified as a date.
Also, I don’t understand why everyone thinks making out with a guy is an implied promise of sex. Yes, some guys assume that a girl who makes out with a guy is interested in having sex with him, but I’ve also had guys in bars ask me home after I only talked with him for ten minutes. Moreover, there is a huge difference between fooling around in a club when your girlfriends are near and going off to some strange guy’s apartment you just met. You don’t know if that guy is the next Ted Bundy, going to sell you into white slavery, etc.
Third, this guy was, as someone else has already said, very skeezy. Maybe renting a place to hang out in the city on the weekends isn’t that bad. But he couldn’t even discreetly check out her cleavage. Most guys have that down pat by 20.

I’m totally late on this, but really? No one is saying that she HAD to have sex with him because they made out. The point Lisa is making, albeit with really incendiary language, is that she did behave in a manner that implied that she wanted to have sex, and as such, shouldn’t have been shocked when the dude thought – gasp – that she WANTED TO HAVE SEX. Funny how that works.

Now – does that mean that she’s somehow obligated to have sex with him because she was flirting? No. Does it mean that he would be within his rights to demand anything from her? Absolutely not. But it’s like waving at someone and then being offended when they wave back. You were the one that sent the signal, why be shocked when someone responds?

Flirting–when done with proper subtlety– is barely perceptible and open to interpretation, as noted by Stendhal:

“Glances are the big guns of the virtuous coquette. Everything can be conveyed in a look, and yet that look can always be denied, because it can never be quoted word for word.”

Impossible to deny the blatant gestures of the OP— hence, the understandable confusion between her expectations… and his.

All games have their rules.

I’ve said before, I wasn’t shocked or offended that he asked me back to his place – I’m attractive and I was flirting with him. I might have considered seeing him again and sleeping with him at some stage if he hadn’t struck me as being so predatory. The speed with which he got on my face and how blatantly he was checking out my breasts had me wondering. His friend telling me about how these boys pretend they live in the city to get the girls was what really had me gobsmacked though. Giving him a phone number was really just an easy way out – I can always ignore him later. I’m certainly not going to judge someone for seeking out casual sex but to construct a lie and involve props and sets is something I hadn’t even considered as an option before. It seemed like the weird things you hear about people pretending to be doctors or footballers etc etc. That is what I call ‘flirting with insincerity’. My friend tells me they only did it once or twice, not the worst behaviour ever, but certainly a bit creepy for me at the time.

Let me summarise by way of Haiku for Lisa:

I might have boned him,
Turns out he lives in Taigum,
No round two for him.

Hugs and kisses ladies and gents.

Lisa, I agree with what you originally said. People often go to clubs to find partners. If you aggressively flirt with a guy, grind on him, make out with him almost immediately, and let him oogle you and grab on you, hundred to one he’s going to ask for sex. DUH!!
I think why people are so pissed at you is either 1) they just want to argue and be bitchy or 2) you’ve hit a raw nerve.

Anyway, the OP just needs to edit her story to focus on the “red herring” so it doesn’t seem like one.