Sweet as Pie

This has happened to me a few times– gay men ( I mean irrefutably… obviously… guaranteedly GAY men) confuse the shit out of me by putting on the moves.

It’s as alarming & unexpected as if a gray-haired little old lady suddenly tried to feel you up in line for the ladies room.

If gay men feel compelled to dabble in bisexuality, then they owe it to the female community-at- large to stop acting so damned gay all the time.

The OP sounds REALLY young…I’m surprised the story wasn’t written in ChatSpeak.

i don’t understand what’s so ‘thrilling and awesome’ to a female about a significantly older gay man wanting to go out for pie…
or should i say, eat a pie he ‘lured’ you with…are you a looney tunes character or something?

Somebody tell me, Is OP a guy, gal or transvestite? How does any of this make sense even then?

I thought it was a guy up until the seduction part. Now I’m just really confused.

@ oi It is a little confusing, but methinks the OP is a female and assumed that she was going out with a gay guy as a friend to get pie, and it turned into a bizarre sushi date. The whole thing is a little bizarre actually.
I’m curious to know who paid for this “uncomfortable and expensive” dinner? If he offered to pick up the tab she should have realized that maybe she had misread the gentleman.
Also, never assume anyone is gay until s/he actually says it.

From our understanding, the OP is female.

Assume..

I also thought that this was written by a guy up until the “I thought he was gay! I was surprised, but in retrospect, I know that it was my mistake for assuming.”
That last message though, eww, just eww, be glad it was the LAST thing he sent you and not the first after the date.

Lisa – While I find the excessively feminine attitudes gay men take on to “prove themselves,” you will find that sort of stupidity in all sexes of all orientations. Straight men acting douchey to prove their straightness. Straight women proving their femininity by rejecting feminism. People act in all sorts of ways to prove something.

I say this because my very best friend is gay and we like to hate on the people trying to prove themselves, but it’s in all walks of life. No one owes anything to anyone other than being themselves, even if it’s trying to prove something.

She probably felt “safe” as being a gay man he had no ulterior motive, i.e. eat any fur pie. However there was way too much assuming in this entire story and I agree, I assumed the OP was a guy as well until late in the story. BTW, Sushi and Pumpkin do not mix anywhere, the pilgrims would be appalled.

Haha, OP!

Lisa I can relate: I had an undeniably gay friend make a move on me and pursue me for months and I kept declining because I thought he was gay and probably didn’t know it, but ultimately, after a year of friendship, I thought he was an effeminate straight man. Another 6 months down the road he came out of the closest! He chased me for 18 months only to come tumbling out of the closet, I was a bit insulted because I don’t look like a man!

* closet

The part that confused me is that the OP says “take me out.” To me, this says date, so I thought the OP was a gay male until the seduing part.

It took a little effort, but I figured out the OP was a chick. She was “thrilled” because she thought she was given a ticket to fag-hag heaven.

greg:
Have you ever had a pumpkin pie/sushi smoothie? You cut up half a pie, and dump it and two trays of yellow fin in a blender. After drinking it, the fun is seeing how long you can keep it down.

Hahaa. Yes, I have found myself unwittingly on a date with a man I thought was undeniably gay. Joke was on me!

Urban, that’s just nasty, however, I would contemplate eating pumpkin pie out of my wifes lil bowl, one tongueful at a time, but that’s a Thanksgiving tail err tale

Lisa, nobody owes it to anybody to stop “acting so damned gay” if they want a date. I hate that attitude, because it results in guys thinking ladies won’t date them if they do anything remotely feminine (and being nice falls into the feminine category far too often). People should be able to act how they want to act without automatically being labeled by everyone they meet.

The bad thing here is that he tried to get her drunk and seduce her, and on the first date, no less! Whether or not she realized it was a date, that’s just bad form. It doesn’t have anything to do with sexuality.

Calm down. My last statement was made with utter flippancy.

I simply meant that many gay men (at least the gay men who are immediately identifiable as ‘gay’) have an unmistakable je ne sais quoi which leads women to naturally assume that they (the men) have zero interest in women sexually.

When you meet such a guy, you think of them strictly as potential friends– like surrogate girlfriends– so when it turns out that they might have a sexual interest in women, it comes as a real shocker. Like wolves dressed in sheep’s clothing (“acting so damned gay”= sheep’s clothing)

Meshell— I’m not sure what you mean by ANY of the following:

“While I find the excessively feminine attitudes gay men take on to “prove themselves,” you will find that sort of stupidity in all sexes of all orientations. Straight men acting douchey to prove their straightness. Straight women proving their femininity by rejecting feminism. People act in all sorts of ways to prove something”.

Can’t a gay man act effeminately because that’s his basic nature?

Can’t a “douchey” straight man’s douchiness exist independently of their heterosexuality?

Can’t straight women reject “feminism” for wholly rational reasons?

I, for one, reject modern feminism not because I think it makes me seem softer & more cuddly– I reject it because it holds women up as helpless, victimized martyrs, and I see women as badass super heroines.

I bookmark this site, so I tend to read it every day, and I notice that lovely Meshell almost always has something novel and moronic to say. This was easily one of the dumbest things so far though, (fingers crossed). Who are you criticizing exactly? It’s somehow a problem for you that gay men act “excessively feminine” to prove themselves? To who? The way you constructed that sentence, there should be someone they are proving themselves to, if the common medium we’re both utilizing is English. I’ll go ahead and assume that you’ve inserted yourself into that sentence. Frankly it’s adorable you think gay guys act a certain way to prove anything to you or anybody else. Or that straight guys act douchey, or women reject femininity for the sake of anybody but their own motivations. I love how for you, this is some default mechanism within social groups: gay men are feminine, straight guys are douchey, and women reject femininity, all in order to prove themselves. What lovely Walmart quality social analysis. You know, it couldn’t be that gay men act effeminately because that’s what comes naturally, and comfortably to them, and in their minds, being free to do whatever they want is just that. It’s almost inconceivable that they could be “being themselves”.

I say this because my very best friend is a dumb sow and we like to hate on people that are comfortable, and probably have nothing to prove, because if we weren’t allowed to throw irrational shade, we’d have no reason to exist and would likely cannibalize each other.

I’ve always enjoyed what Meshell has to say …maybe that makes me moronic as well. but I highly doubt she compartmentalizes everyone into four neat little packages. Just my thoughts.

The Internets are fraught with traps of sarcasm and subtlety.

lol i too wasconfused i thought it was written by a gay guy at first. though the op doesn’t really say why she thought he was gay, did he dress flamboyantly and walk with a sashay? very confuzzling.

@glenn lmao, cannibalize each other. meshell, you suck balls

I feel like sometimes gay guys flirt with women noncomittally, just for the fun of it… or to see how how they are, lol. Oh and boo Meshell for saying that gay men are wrong to act effeminate or that they’re just acting up. Some gay guys are naturally very “masculine” and are fine being that way. Some gay guys are naturally very “effeminate”, and they’re fine being that way. They don’t need your permission to act how they want to aoct, and if you’re going to have that attitude about the ways people express themselves, harmlessly, then I don’t think you’re a very likeable person.

Meshell has strong opnions but she has feelings too, leave her be.

meshell was referring to people FALSELY acting in a certain way.
cue people bitching about how people can NATURALLY be a certain way.
when what she was talking about was people behaving UNNATURALLY.

does it need to be explained several more times in different ways before it becomes clear or have you guys grasped it yet?

@zomboid: Meshell never qualified her statement of profound ignorance to apply to only SOME gay men, she just mentioned “the excessively feminine attitudes gay men take on to prove themselves”. She’s A) painting ALL gay men as excessively effeminate, and B) suggesting there’s some sort of a problem with acting effeminate. Your charitable interpretation is unwarranted, she’s basically just “hating on” girly boys. First of all, I’m not aware of Meshell or anybody explaining the internet diarrhea even once, so I’m not sure what your last comment is about. And by the way, if people are acting FALSELY and or UNNATURALLY, I sort of doubt Meshell is the sort of person that has a meaningful enough understanding of nuance and subtlety to be able to judge that accurately. She seems to be pretty full on about groups of people acting monolithically and stereotypically, which tells me that she to a very large extent, the reality of human nature boggles her mind.

Seriously zomboid. These stereotyped pronouncements about how gay men act, how they’re supposed to act, and how it would be desirable for them to act are what I expect from 7th graders, and you just hope they’ll grow up to be somewhat less stupid as they age. Meshell may very well be just a stupid 7th grader with access to the internet, and if that’s the case, ok. I don’t think it’s shocking that she made ignorant comments like that. But it’s indicative of an attitude in society that the femininity of a significant plurality of our gay men is somehow a problem. It’s not. And I’ll let people like Meshell know how ignorant and societally retarding their opinion is.

“No one owes anything to anyone other than being themselves, even if it’s trying to prove something”
I like Meshell. she is sticking with what she said, she indeed does not owe anybody explanation.

oi – “No one owes anything to anyone other than being themselves, even if it’s trying to prove something”

tHats the weirdest line in her whole schpiel against effeminate gay men. If she really thinks that people should just be themselves then why would she criticize certain people for acting a certain way? She’s saying that they’r proving something but really they’re being themselves, so she should be happy for them.
If shes like a homophobic sort of person that just doesn’t like gay people, ok i guess then she can stick with whatever she said, but i agree wtih glenn and people, it’s pretty lame. Also, all thepeople criticizing commenters on here for critiquing somebody else’s lame comments, grow up. If people are comfortable enough sitting in their basement making fun of gay guys, they should be stron g enough totake criticism too.

and by “agree wtih glenn”, I mean agree with LBJFK who seemed to agree with me, maybe.

wow my spelling is degrading as the day goes on…

Exactly glen. I think you are mistaken about what she is trying to say. I don’t think she is criticizing gay men for acting feminine actually opposite. Liza said that if gay men are interested in men and women both they owe to female community not to act so gay. Meshell is simply opposing that gay men, even if they are bisexual they don’t owe anybody are free to act the way they want. Just like straight men act douchy if they want, or woman want feminine if they want. Not relevant to the argument but she tried to say that the reason gay men act feminine to prove that they are gay. I think.
but at the end of the day I am not Meshell and she has not provided any explanation so your interpretation could be right too. You have a right to criticize Meshell for whatever reason you think anyway.
Personally I think outward behavior does not define/indicate your sexuality but whatever.

Exactly glen. I think you are mistaken about what she is trying to say. I don’t think she is criticizing gay men for acting feminine actually opposite. Liza said that if gay men are interested in men and women both they owe to female community not to act so gay. Meshell is simply opposing that gay men, even if they are bisexual they don’t owe anybody are free to act the way they want. she also tried to list the reason behind why gay men act so feminine. That is to prove themselves gay. Just like sometimes straight men act too masculine to prove their straightness or females acting too feminine to come across nicer gender.
but at the end of the day I am not Meshell and she has not provided any explanation so your interpretation could be right too. You have a right to criticize Meshell for whatever reason you think, anyway.
Personally I think outward behavior does not define/indicate your sexuality but whatever.

Feel free to add punctuation wherever its needed in last comment.

Just realized I misspelled everybody’s names that was not intensional Lisa and Glenn.

Perhaps if Meshell had used the word “signal” instead of “prove” it may have been clearer–

–Gay men acting effeminate to signal that they’re gay

–Straight men acting douchey (however you choose to define THAT) to signal that they’re straight.

– Straight women rejecting feminism to signal that they’re feminine.

(Still don’t quite understand that last point, unless ‘feminist’ is synonymous with “bull dyke”.)

“Straight women rejecting feminism to signal that they’re feminine.
(Still don’t quite understand that last point, unless ‘feminist’ is synonymous with “bull dyke”.)”

Plenty of people still believe that feminists are all ball-busting lesbian man-haters (and probably, very soon, someone will arrive to comment to that effect.)

Many, many women will begin statements with, “I’m not a feminist or anything, I just believe in equal pay/pro-choice/sexual harassment/anti-discrimination…” in other words, they believe in generally accepted feminist goals, but they don’t want anyone to think they’re feminist because to too many numbskulls, feminist IS synonymous with “bull dyke” (and too many people think a “bull dyke” is a bad thing to be.)

oi: “Meshell is simply opposing that gay men, even if they are bisexual they don’t owe anybody are free to act the way they want. she also tried to list the reason behind why gay men act so feminine. That is to prove themselves gay.”

I was a little confused by your wording in the first sentence. I mean part of what bugs me is why is Meshell, presumably a woman, in any position to list the reasons behind why gay men act so feminine? She’s not a gay man. She might watch will and grace and have a “gay best friend”TM, but she is totally unaware of the experience of being gay. So she can say whatever she wants about them, and present them as facts, but she’s basically spouting nonsense. An analogous situation would be if I said, “black women act really trashy, and here are the reasons why”. It’s horribly offensive. I’m not a black woman. I have black female friends, but even then I’d feel like a fool going online and talking like some authority on black women. So right off the bat, there’s something awful about the way she talks about gay men.

Second of all, does Meshell really believe that gay men act feminine for the purpose of projecting their sexuality to the world? That’s shocking, because I didn’t think straight people thought that about us. Effeminate gay men almost never act effeminate because they want everybody to know they’re gay. They act effeminate because it’s comfortable to them. And it’s wonderful that they are comfortable doing things like that. They probably grew up with the idea that they have to act hyper-masculine all the time, I know I did. So when they come out and some gay men act effeminate, I highly doubt it’s to let other people know something about their sexuality. It’s more that they feel liberated, not having to pose as a straight man comes with the gift of expressing themselves in however they want. They can strut, or sashay. They can talk in a low monotone or in a sing-songy treble. Whatever they feel comfortable doing, it’s for them to do. I think that’s a really beautiful thing, that gay men can be free to act however they feel comfortably, as well as lesbians, straight women/men, and transgendered people. Meshell was talking about a group of people that’s marginalized a lot in society, especially because of their femininity – something which is really none of her business – and she really didn’t seem to be saying anything respectful or intelligent. And that’s why your extremely charitable interpretation of what you said seems unwarranted.

And I agree with your last comment, outward behavior doesn’t and shouldn’t indicate sexuality. An effeminate man could be straight, as in this story, and I don’t think that should automatically make him a bad person, or neuter his role as a romantic figure.

C’mon, Glenn– outward behavior doesn’t indicate sexuality?

Perhaps not with 100% accuracy, that’s true.

But, wouldn’t you agree that one can predict a person’s sexuality with a high degree of accuracy based solely on their behavior? Are you really suggesting that people’s sexuality is a complete mystery until they make a verbal declaration that they’re gay, straight, or whatever? (Not that verbal declarations are unfailingly honest, but never mind that–).

Has that been your personal experience? Do you never make assumptions about people’s sexuality within the first five minutes of meeting them, even if they’ve offered no hard evidence? (And assuming the answer’s “yes”, aren’t the assumptions generally accurate?)

something about the whole pie eating and fish thing was my first clue he was straight… how’s about a nice slice of double entendre… anyone???

WAY TOO MUCH TO READ, EVERYONE JUST SHUT UP. oops, sorry, caps lock.

maybe i’m siding with meshell because i had a slight run-in with her when i made a childish joke about lesbians a while back so as far as i know she’s fairly aware (from the more PC side) of the ins and outs of the PC minefield that is commenting on queerdom.

Me too zomboid, I’m also siding with Meshell because I think Glenn- in his rage- completely missed what she said and started projecting. Projecting is not always a bad thing too, if it’s brought about respectfully rather than as an attack against a person: “…I notice that lovely Meshell almost always has something novel and moronic to say. This was easily one of the dumbest things so far though…”

Yeah Glenn seems bent on proving Meshell anti-gay but Meshell does not care. That’s gotta be unhinging for Glenn. I am loving this. Waves at Glenn, hey there!

Um yeah thanks people, I’m not bent on proving anybody anti-gay. I’m pretty sure Meshell probably considers herself a big old friend of gay people, which is why she felt so comfortable speaking out as an internet expert about them. But everything she said was just a smug, ugly criticism of effeminate gay men that I thought had no place in a blog like this. I don’t need to prove anything about Meshell, she put that stuff out there.

@Thandi: I only noticed Meshell’s name out of many on this site, because I noticed that she made a similar comment to this before, where talks about the crazy habits of the gay community. It’s about as appreciated as some random white dude talking about the behavior of black women, as I mentioned earlier. You sound like a jerk talking about that stuff when you never experienced anything those people really experience. I’m not really projecting, are you quite sure of what that word means Thandi? Because nothing I said in any way projected anything onto Meshell. I took her at just what she said, and criticized her for that and only that.

@Zomboid: I mean you do what you want, this is of course just the internet, but I wonder what’s not childish about pointing out that some gay men are feminine and presenting that as a negative? At some point jokes made at the expense of effeminate gay men told by straight people lose their punch dude, i.e. circa 1995.

@oi: I love how to you somebody that criticizes some woman on the internet, on a free forum, for criticizing (there was nothing nice about what she said about gay men, nor really straight women, nor straight men, you believe whatever you want) gay men that act effeminately is an “unhinged person”. You know, I honestly don’t expect Meshell to care, the kind of person that would say such critical things from a position of no authority with which to speak is callous. But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with me saying that such comments are unacceptable.

@lisa: From your posts about your “inability to comprehend transgendered people”, I hardly think you can see much farther than your nose about LGBT issues.

Glenn– you’re SO unfair. While I may not have been born a member of the LGBT community, I’ve identified as a LGBT for as far back as I can remember.

Cut me some slack, Jack. Does EVERYBODY have to unquestioningly parrot the party-line gibberish, AS IF it’s some sort of verifiable fact?

@Lisa: “I understand homosexuality, but I don’t understand transgenderism. I think to myself– what… this guy wishes he had tits? A vagina? Does ANYONE have an inborn craving for particular sex equipment? That’s odd. Is it a craving for the trappings of a certain gender— silks & lace as opposed to denim & leather? Ribbons & curls as opposed to a crew cut? All very well and good, but it’s a societal construct– you don’t need to change your equipment for that…..I don’t see the desire to surgically change sex as any different than the desire to surgically enlarge your bosoms, reshape your nose, or inject collagen in your lips. Somehow you got it in your head that changing your body will lead to happiness.”

It would be very surprising if you “identified as a LGBT”, because you talk about trans people in a blatantly disrespectful way. Then again, there’s transphobia within the LGBT community, so it’s understandable. Just as you think it’s odd to have wished to be born into another gender, other people would think it’s odd that you “identified as a LGBT”, if you’re not just BSing that. You see transphobia and homophobia are just uninformed prejudices, neither one has a valid basis. You go on to equate sexual reassignment surgery to cosmetic procedures. There’s nothing valid in that comparison, when a trans person undergoes surgery, it’s very difficult on them, the process of transitioning. The people around them know about their trans identity whether the trans person wants them to or not, and lots of tans people get beaten up or harassed, or can be fired from work as there aren’t many laws protecting trans people. A woman that gets a boob job or a man that gets rhinoplasty don’t have to deal with any such hindrances. Because the latter two are cosmetic procedures. And some people feel they were born in the wrong gender, and really why do you get to have any say in what they feel comfortable with?

I’m really baffled by what you mean when you say, “parrot the party-line gibberish, AS IF it’s some sort of verificable fact?” For you, showing a minimum level of respect for a traditionally maligned group is apparently “party-line gibberish”. I’d love to know what political party gives a care about LGBT issues, because I’m pretty sure that doesn’t exist. Showing respect isn’t related to “verifiable fact”, it’s called manners honey. What your parents should have taught you.

And by the way Lisa, its not “SO unfair” to call you out on the ideas you’ve put into words.

Glenn, I read Lisa’s last comments as slathered in sarcasm, honey. The first paragraph, anyway.

how come oi gets away with saying glenn is bent in the middle of all this?