The Biker

I had, like so many 30-something professionals with no real spare time, turned to the internet in an attempt to find a half-way decent date. At first, my supposed matches were horrifying (in retrospect, most would have likely ended up as great fodder for this site), but within a couple of weeks I managed to have a few really great and interesting email exchanges with a seemingly hip guy. He was witty, used correct punctuation, liked many of the same bands as me, read books, had a professional job and seemed pretty grounded. Oh, and he was actually really quite cute, so I was looking forward to meeting him.

On the day of our date – we were meeting at a little cafe for dinner – he told me to “watch for the guy on the motorbike.”  I was pretty surprised when he showed up on a baby blue electric bicycle. The ones that make whirring noises. Look, I’m not some motorcycle snob or anything and I really do love zipping around on a Vespa, but an electric bicycle is definitely *not* a motorbike. I chalked it up to him wanting to impress me and he filled out the motorcycle jacket pretty well, so I let it go.

Now, I can’t decide if the worst thing about the date was his nonstop boasting about knowing all there is to know about “real machines” like his electric bike, his constant interrupting to correct insignificant details (“actually, the actor you referred to as ‘that guy from Milk‘ has a name. It’s Sean Penn”), the fact that HE ORDERED MY FOOD FOR ME (I was so shocked that I just nodded at the waitress), his 20 minute monologue about having excessive tartar build-up that required monthly de-scaling at the dentist, his amazing ability to insert half a sandwich into his mouth (and continue talking), or his ‘helpful’ suggestion that I’d “look way hotter” if I cut my hair into a pixie-cut and bleached it “because Lori Petty from Tank Girl is every man’s fantasy.”

Not only did he holler at the waitress who was clear cross the restaurant to say “we’ll need separate bills because I’m not paying for her dinner” (which was so completely unnecessary because I always go dutch), he suggested that I was probably a “cheap tipper” because “all girls are cheap tippers” and that he’d cover my 10%. Wow, a whole ten percent! At this point, I was so shocked by how diametrically opposed he was from the dude I had been emailing all week that I got the giggles, which he apparently took as a good sign.

He grabbed my hand as I stood up to flee (after leaving my poor server 25%), pulled me within an inch of his face told me that I was the most amazing woman he’d ever met and that he was going to take me home with him to “end the night right” back at his place. I didn’t stick around to see if he was planning to ‘double’ me home.

 

Comments (74)
rcApril 8th, 2011 at 5:45 am

oh wow…

ChelsApril 8th, 2011 at 6:01 am

5-stars. A similar scenario happened to me several years ago. Funny how al butterflies and giggles can turn to ‘ohmygodrunnnnn’ really, really quickly.

RepublicApril 8th, 2011 at 6:23 am

It’s like this guy subconciously *doesn’t* want to date. He did everything wrong. How can people be so unaware of themselves?

5 stars :-)

RepublicApril 8th, 2011 at 6:24 am

*subconsciously

RepublicApril 8th, 2011 at 6:27 am

…and not to turn these into issues but:

If he orders your meal for you, he should pay.

that pixie girl from Tank Girl does NOT look god, I googled her! ; )

TheRestOfTheStoryApril 8th, 2011 at 6:43 am

Oh, so you only now heard of a performance artist taking advantage of the internet.

winterApril 8th, 2011 at 6:51 am

Republic, In my experience, every guy thinks whatever HIS particular fantasy is = “every man’s fantasy”, when in reality men have just as diverse taste as women do.

emApril 8th, 2011 at 7:26 am

You had me at “used correct punctuation”

KandyjoApril 8th, 2011 at 7:38 am

Be brave. Ride home with my on the handlebars of my powder blue Schwinn with the basket and baseball cards in the spokes. I’ll even let you ding the bell.

MilliardärApril 8th, 2011 at 7:58 am

Republic – I think Lori Petty is just awesome in Tank Girl but that’s because of the characters attitude not really because of her looks!

buffyApril 8th, 2011 at 8:01 am

@em–ditto!

@Kandyjo–only if it has a banana seat.

One of my best male friends adores Lori Petty from Tank Girl. Granted, he’s gay.

NotCinderellApril 8th, 2011 at 8:17 am

LOL, fabulous. Gotta love a guy who’s going to choose what you eat for dinner and then make you pay for it yourself.

KandyjoApril 8th, 2011 at 8:35 am

Tank Girl’s bespectacled sidekick, the one with brown hair (drawing a blank on her name), totally tickled my nerdy-girl fancy.

Lori Petty, however, reminded me of a Q-Tip.

Irish PopApril 8th, 2011 at 9:01 am

Now hold on, when women say that a guy ordered her meal, do they mean he picked the food and ordered the meal, or do they mean she told him what she wanted and then when the server came he ordered it for her? I need to be clear.

I had rice pudding for lunch today.

Lori Petty was definitely cute in that movie, but I agree that mostly it was due to her characters peronality.

I’ve never seen one o these “electri bikes”…do I need to get out more?

Drinky the drunk girlApril 8th, 2011 at 9:22 am

Lori Petty was the man in tank girl?

RepublicApril 8th, 2011 at 9:30 am

Irish Pop, it means he decides what he thinks you should have and orders it for you. I hate it when guys do that, especially when they don’t even discuss it with me first. It’s like why even bother giving the girl a menu then?

It’s happened to me a few times with arrogant guys that try to show of: “…and the lady will have the salmon/ steak/ this wine etc”

Irish PopApril 8th, 2011 at 9:34 am

Christ! I’d never assume I know what a woman wants to eat. I order my wife’s food when it’s just her and I out, but she tells me what she wants first.

Pleas send help – Furloughed Federal Employee

How could that tradition have even survived this many generations? That sounds like something my grandfather’s dad would ha done.

Does anyone else hope I get laid on my new couch tonight?

RepublicApril 8th, 2011 at 9:44 am

Thank you for not doing that IP, I do hope you get laid on your new couch tonight! lol.

And for the guys that do this: is it because you assume you’re paying and don’t have a lot of money on you? Or is it because women can’t read those dreadfully complicated menus?

Irish PopApril 8th, 2011 at 9:51 am

Whew; good because I thought it was just me that was hoping it would happen!

LauraApril 8th, 2011 at 10:11 am

Apparently, these men have so little respect for women that they think we’re too stupid to read a menu. Deciding what we want to eat is such a difficult, life-altering decision, women can’t possibly have the brainpower to decide this on their own.

OYVEHApril 8th, 2011 at 10:30 am

“the fact that HE ORDERED MY FOOD FOR ME ”

It is 20-GODDAMN-11, how the hell are there still men so socially tone deaf that they think this is acceptable? WTF how do people so stupid manage to remember to breathe?

blondieApril 8th, 2011 at 11:16 am

Umm… I just assumed the OP meant that, after disscussingith her what she wanted, he ordered it. I assume this because no human being would ever be so ridiculous as to make up someone else’s order. Silly assumption, considering they made it onto this site.

But even THAT is annoying to me. Especially if the waiter asks a follow-up, and then the orderer has to “translate” by turning back to you and asking, “Do you want your dressing on the side?”, waiting for you to say, “No, on the salad,” then turning back to the waiter and saying “She’ll have her dressing on the salad.” What a strange, pointless practice.

Irish Pop- any insight as to why people do this?

IzziApril 8th, 2011 at 12:04 pm

I have had that happen to me…sort of…the guy said “and I think we should both have the scallops”, when the waiter was saying that that was the dish of the day to which I said “yes why don’t YOU have scallops, they sound nice, but in fact I’ll have the veal massala please” (even though I love scallops, I resent someone choosing what I should eat)

But I actually know from having been told all about proper “dinner etiquette” by my mum, is that it is supposed to be a gentleman’s way of showing you that he can afford to treat you to the best on the menu…In theory, the guy who orders for you will look at the menu, see that there is lobster and say “my dear, I think we should treat ourselves to the lobster, garçon, please serve us your finest lobster thermidor” and before the poor girl has a chance to say “erm, I’m allergic to seafood” or even “I don’t like lobster” the waiter is off in the kitchen telling the boss that yet another customer is “shelling out” (pardon the pun) on the lobster….

Irish PopApril 8th, 2011 at 12:15 pm

@Blondie – Actually it’s considered polite in some situations (especially when the man is paying and in a “relationship” with the lady), it’s a throw back from the days that men held doors and umbrellas for ladies, or the common courtesy of offering them their seats on a bus or train, and like pulling a chair out for a lady. Those are all common courtesies that men have done for ladies in the past.

If a man does it, he often begins his order with, “the lady will be having…” therefore the waiter knows that it is for the lady and if there are follow up questions he should, and usually does, ask the woman directly, and she answers directly. The waiter should always serve the ladies first, take their order first (if the man doesn’t offer to give it), and bring the bill to the man. It’s not a chauvinistic thing, it is a tradition thing for men…it’s like showing respect to your mother or grandmother, no matter how crazy they come-off.

I’ve done this in the past with my wife and even some dates, mostly when a waiter comes to the table to take an order and asks me first, since I always ask what my wife is having, I usually look at the waiter and say something along the lines of, “my wife would like to have the…” or “I will direct the waiter to her first if I don’t know what she is having. So, if a man asks you what you’re having and he orders it for you that’s not being disrespectful, it’s being respectfully traditional.

IzziApril 8th, 2011 at 12:18 pm

oh my comment disappeared…let’s just hope it is just being modded & will be back :-)

AvidReaderApril 8th, 2011 at 12:21 pm

I’m also surprised people still order food for others nowadays. What with all the different food allergies running around, you never know if what you’re ordering could be lethal.
I’ve never had someone do it to me, but I imagine if it did happen, they’d order something I don’t like. I’m a very picky eater, it’s very possible, haha.

SurrealApril 8th, 2011 at 12:25 pm

Heh, my boyfriend sometimes orders “for me”. As in, I’ll decide what I want and he’ll tell the waitress what we want to order. I think it’s kind of cute but an EX- friend of mine went on and on about how archaic and stupid it was. I never had an issue with it since I thought it was cute watching him do it.

Aside from that, I’ve never had a guy actually order something for me because he deemed it acceptable. I mean, who the hell does that? I’ve seen it on a movie before and I thought that really didn’t happen.

CJApril 8th, 2011 at 12:26 pm

Irish Pop… do you have any brothers? In their mid-to-late-30s? In the Los Angeles area? Please send them to me. Thanks.

Wow, I skip the site for a week and SO MANY AWESOME NEW STORIES ARE POSTED! This guy sounds like a tool. People who constantly feel the need to correct others, boast about their knowledge, and, um, apparently share dental issues are definitely VWD-worthy. I meant to click 5-stars, but slipped and clicked 4. OP, in my heart, your date was a 5-star date.

PhoenixApril 8th, 2011 at 1:08 pm

Well, the guy was acting ‘nerdy’ in the sense that he thought he was alot smarter than the girl. It’s competition over intelligence, but the one who’s trying to 1-up the other, thinking he/she is smarter, might have issues dealing with low-self esteem and needs to feel better about it in some way.

Maybe that’s why he ordered her food, thinking he should take charge and in control of the situation. Just to counter his ill-thoughts of being dumber than usual.

hellcatApril 8th, 2011 at 1:49 pm

Weirdly, I hate a waiter do something similar. He came to take our order and saw I was looking at the drink menu, and he said “Oh, I know what you want. X drink.” Which is fine – waiters make suggestions, right? Except that he was writing it down and moving on without waiting for me to say yes or no.

So I said, Thank you, but I’d rather have Y drink. He said “No really, you’ll love X.” I said “No, really, I want Y.” He said ok and left. Five minutes later he walked back with Drink X and said, “I just want you to try it, I REALLY think this is a better choice, and if you don’t like it, then I’ll bring you your drink.”

I’ll admit it was good, but my God. I sent it back on the principle of it. What an overly aggressive freak.

hellcatApril 8th, 2011 at 1:50 pm

ahem, *HAD a waiter do something similar. Although might be more appropriate.

blondieApril 8th, 2011 at 2:23 pm

Yeah, stuff like this is why Irish Pop and I woul date (plus the alry married + we don’t know each other stuff). To me chivalrous throwbacks like that are just condescending and sexist. I’ll order for my grandmother and mother sometimes, becaus they’re hard of hearing and have trouble understanding English, but there sure as hell is no reason why I can’t order just because I have a vagina. But clearly many women (like CJ) are all about this stuff, so to each his own I guess.

Good luck with your couch.

CJApril 8th, 2011 at 2:29 pm

wow, blondie, I think you’re being a little harsh. I personally hate it when I’m backing into a parking spot at a garage and a male attendant feels the need to “guide” me in. Because I have a vagina I can’t handle parking?

However, while things like ordering for someone (when you know what they want) IS a little outdated, I do like it when a man does something like open a door for me. It’s considerate. If I reach a door first, I’ll hold it open for whoever comes after me. I think that real chivalry isn’t based on the idea that the recipient is incapable of performing whatever action was performed, (holding a door, helping with a coat, whatever), but that the giver is being considerate. If I have a date, and I’m driving, you better believe I open my date’s door before getting into my own. (I also do this if I’m driving a friend.)

Chill out.

hellcatApril 8th, 2011 at 4:08 pm

I don’t know, I kind of agree that it seems condescending. I think holding the door is different – not that holding the door is particularly difficult, but it’s also not something that most people really love to do, you know? It’s just a mundane, day to day task, not much potential for enjoyment or misery there. Because of this, in 99% of cases, holding the door for someone – male or female – is helpful. Whereas ordering food is really not something most people consider a burden, even remotely, and it’s actually something that most people want a say in.

Does that make any sense? Like, I don’t give a damn how the door is held open as long as I get through it; I do care what I eat for dinner, and I’d like some say in that.

RepublicApril 8th, 2011 at 4:18 pm

I once went on date with a guy who didn’t have a car, but I did. When I picked him up he insisted on driving MY CAR to the place. If guys want to be macho, they have to be secure. That’s all it is. Be comfortable and confident in yourself that a woman’s achievements don’t threaten you. Anyway because of that one guy, it’s a dealbreaker for me to date a guy without a car, not because I’m sexist but it’s just become such a tainted scenario, I can’t look passed it.

RepublicApril 8th, 2011 at 4:22 pm

Also Hellcat, you ordering food for your mom and grandmom is fine. It’s a different situation because of the reasons you mentioned and because you’ve known them your whole life. The waiter ordering for you!! Wow! Was it just you or were you with at least one guy?

TMSApril 8th, 2011 at 4:24 pm

A five star date with a Grade A jackass.

blondieApril 8th, 2011 at 4:27 pm

Weird- I thought I was being pretty chill. Maybe the word “vagina” made me sounds like I’m spazzing.

I just said everyone has a different preference on this kind of thing, and this is my preference. I’m all for anyone helping anyone else with anything they might have trouble with. Open a door if you’re there before me? Thanks! Carry my second bag of groceries? Thanks! I would do the same for you! But I don’t have any trouble reading shit off a menu. Plus if the gender norm can’t be switched, that’s were I find it weird and sexist. Would it freak everyone out if the woman said, “The gentleman will have the linguine, and I will have the scallops?” Probably.

But again, to each his own. [insert shoulder shrug to indicate chilled-out-ness]

RepublicApril 8th, 2011 at 4:31 pm

Oops! blondie… I meshed you and Hellcat into one person. Apologies :)

ParparApril 8th, 2011 at 4:42 pm

Someone ordering for me if I don’t ask them to annoys me a lot, but I’ll often ask my boyfriend to give me suggestions or pick a couple of things for us to share, since he knows fine dining more than i do and knows my palette pretty well. Then he’ll confirm with me what he is ordering and then order it from the waiter/waitress. On the other side of things, I always call places to make reservations or get information because he has an accent and people sometimes don’t understand him over the phone. It’s a give and take. He doesn’t order because he is a man.

I can’t imagine someone ordering food for me without me choosing it, but I also never realized it was a big deal to place an order for another person. A lot of times when I go out with my family if everyone has chosen what they want, when the waiter/waitress comes someone may just say give a detailed order for the table since we figure it saves time. Like if we get indian I might order for my parents and say, “One mild biryani with lamb, one chicken tikka masala with no spice at all, and one naan.” No problem. My parents just never remember to specify the details of their order and go through the back and forth and it seems more efficient this way.

I am curious what the OP meant, since I had assumed that meant that the guy chose what she was eating, but otherwise I don’t see it as being a huge deal, though maybe a bit irritating.

hellcatApril 8th, 2011 at 4:55 pm

Republic, that’s ok, blondie’s pretty cool so I don’t mind the misread. Re: the overly persistent waiter, I was with my husband and my (female) best friend, both of whom were sitting there like wtf??? and were a little irritated on my behalf.

Parpar, I guess I should clarify that I don’t think anyone is saying that no one should order for anyone else, ever – if you’re at a restaurant you’ve been to a million times already with someone you know really well (parents, best friends, long-term committed partner), or it’s someone who has already verbally ok’d the idea, then whatever. The difference is that they were on a first date, and he obviously didn’t know her that well. So to just assume that he knew what she wanted to eat without asking her – particularly while she was right there at the table and could order for herself just fine – was clueless at best, and pretty condescending at worst.

blondieApril 8th, 2011 at 5:15 pm

Dammit Hellcat! I don’t need you condescendingly accepting apologies on my behalf just because I have a vagina!

anonymousApril 8th, 2011 at 5:55 pm

I’m at a point in my life where not only would I welcome a valet to guide me when I’m backing my car in to a spot, but I would give him a couple bucks to do it for me, lol.

Oddly, I’ve never heard of an electric bicycle. Would’ve killed for one of those back when I rode bikes.

OP_indeedApril 8th, 2011 at 11:44 pm

OP here to clarify the ordering of food.

He CHOSE and ORDERED my meal for me. I should have been clearer, sorry. Now, I had mulled over a couple of items and mentioned my difficulty in picking an entree, but that still didn’t mean I had told him what I wanted and he just ordered for the two of us, knowing that I’d picked chicken or something. No, he just decided that I was going to eat the salmon special and told the waitress as much. I’ll do the ‘ordering’ for the whole table sometimes when we’re out for Indian or Vietnamese or something where we all share the dishes, so I’m not weirded out by people doing that; this situation was not like that.

Hope that clarifies things!

IzziApril 9th, 2011 at 5:36 am

:-( I wrote a long comment & no one even acknowledged it :-( (not that I’m an attention whore but I wrote it before Irish pop answered & I think my explanation sort of got lost in the tide !!!)

Anyway, the way I see it is “do as you would be done by” – in other words, I’ll hold the door open for someone, be it man woman or child because it is nice to have someone do that for you….it’s not a gender thing to me…

MeshellApril 9th, 2011 at 8:26 am

I find it interesting when someone orders for me. It instantly tells me so much about the. When they ask “would you like me to order for you?” I am intrigued by their choice (especially since I have no food allergies). Then if they ask questions to get to know me more, I’m even more intrigued. I had one gentleman do all this, and I had a lovely dinner. I’ve also gone on dates like the OP, where it was rude and inconsiderate.

There is nothing wrong with ordering for a woman. There is everything wrong about not getting to know her and respecting her desires. It’s simple as “Have you tried a so and so?”

I’m just a foodie that can tell a lot about a person from how they treat a restaurant situation. Ordering for me isn’t the problem. Not respecting my likes, dislikes and getting to know me are the problems.

StephRApril 9th, 2011 at 11:26 am

I have gradually accustomed my boyfriend of four years to order for both of us, once I’ve told him what I want. He opens my car door for me, and he walks on the outside of the sidewalk, closest to the road. If we’re a throwback couple in some ways, so be it. I have social skills and know which fork to use; I like a man with social skills that match mine.

What is sad to me is how the old manners are dying.

EukaryoteApril 9th, 2011 at 11:40 am

This guy sounds like a friend of mine. Real weirdo, and he’s the only guy in the male population who will ever say “All guys fantasize about Tank Girl” so quite the catch.
@StephR: Chivalry? Yes it is a dying phenomena. It’s rare, but any guy who even knows of it should be at least slightly exalted.
@Meshell: Ordering for someone just seems annoying. While there’s a chance that it could be beneficial if whatever someone orders for someone else actually happens to be good, it just seems like a babying process that I’d rather not put anyone through and I’d sure as hell not want someone to put me through in any scenario.

LucApril 9th, 2011 at 12:26 pm

I’ve had a man order my dinner for me before, when we were on the third date, I believe. He didn’t even give me time to speak before saying I would be getting the salmon. Now, I hate seafood, so I promtly told the waiter to forget that and ordered the food I actually wanted.
I left halfway through the dinner and paid my half of the bill at the front of the resturant because he was being so rude.
Oh, well. At least I didn’t have to deal with him anymore.

OP, this guy sounds crazy. Talking about dental hygene on the first date is just weird.

IzzaApril 9th, 2011 at 6:54 pm

I agree that a man shouldn’t decide what a woman is going to eat, but why does everyone think that chivalry is condescending to women? I see it the other way around, women are so awesome that men have to treat them like princesses and grovel at their feet. Shouldn’t it be the men complaining?

RitaApril 10th, 2011 at 4:21 pm

I like that my partner will offer me his arm when I’m wearing heals, I like that he likes to come around and open car doors / pull out my chair. The push for ‘chivalry takes away women’s rights’ is removing not only chivalry but basic common courtesy (eg holding doors open). So many young guys wouldn’t even think that, hey maybe that skimpy dress the girl is wearing to impress you is a tad chilly now that your outside – perhaps you should offer her your coat! While it is preferred that a girl also HAVE her own coat too, many places (especially clubs etc) don’t have coat rooms anymore so your stuck carrying a coat AND a handbag/purse around which sucks for dancing.

BilboBagginsApril 10th, 2011 at 10:05 pm

Um. Am I the only person who is wondering what’s *wrong* with a 25 percent tip?

NotCinderellApril 11th, 2011 at 6:04 am

It’s one thing for a man to order for a date if 1. He knows what she likes (and presumably they’d have to be dating for a while for that), 2. He suspects that she might not order what she really wants because it’s pricey, but he wants to treat her anyway, and 3. HE’S PAYING. Ordering for someone else is something someone should ONLY EVER do if they intend to also foot the bill.

If my husband said to a waiter, “My wife will have the duck,” then I’d probably answer, “Aw, really? Thanks, honey!” Because he knows I love duck but would be shy about ordering it because it’s expensive. If a guy I didn’t know ordered for me on a first date, I’d be pissed off. If he then expected me to pay for it myself, I’d be livid.

Irish PopApril 11th, 2011 at 10:20 am

@blondie – ‘Yeah, stuff like this is why Irish Pop and I would not date (plus the already married + we don’t know each other stuff). To me chivalrous throwbacks like that are just condescending and sexist. ”

I fixed the parts that were missing to better understand my response.

I’m not offended that you “wouldn’t date” me, there are women that wouldn’t for all kinds of reasons, though none have ever attributed it to chivalry. I’m confused at your interpreting it as “condescending” for a man to open a door for a lady, or to offer a coat if she shivers…I can understand if a man forces chivalry on a lady and does not allow her to fend for herself ever, but to consider this behavior condescending ,bar none, is asinine to say the least.

I was raised in a household where my mother and father shared equal status. Granted, my father always had the better career, my mother still worked, and though my mother was more hands on in some aspects of parenting, my father did his duty and was often more hands on with the house.

Regardless of domestic life, my father taught me one thing when it came to ladies, and that was to treat every lady in your life as if they were a “princess”. Why? I’m not sure, maybe it’s because he knew that they could make your life a living hell if you didn’t, or maybe he was thinking if I didn’t, I wouldn’t have much more to go on when it comes to landing a mate…but I’d gather it’s the reason I personally deduced. I believe he taught me this because we, as men, understand that women provide the world with the gift of life. Men are nothing without the care, love, and companionship of women and without exception, men cannot bring new life into this world without the gift of a woman.

When I choose to open the door for, pull out a chair for, order (knowing what she wants) food for, or offer a coat to, my wife…I do so not to imply she is unable to fend for herself, or that I’m superior to her because I am a man…I don’t even do it to tell her she is “equal” to me (that’s condescending in and of itself), I do it to tell her that she is a precious gift in my life. That’s why I treat my grandmother and mother the same way, not because they are old and can’t read the menu, or too weak to open a door, or too old to get in the car on their own, but because they are the reason I have my life.

As I said, I’m not offended you wouldn’t date me, but I am perplexed by the logic behind your notion…because all you know about me is that I contain a level of chivalry. And, to me, your inference on my behavior is sexist in itself.

OY VEHApril 11th, 2011 at 11:43 am

“but why does everyone think that chivalry is condescending to women?”

Because it is condescending. Chivalry was never about being good to women. Its about showing off to other men about how good you are, because you deign to be nice to those beneath you (i.e. women). It’s benevolent sexism, which is by definition condescending.

Chivalry does not equal “good manners”. Good manners is holding the door open for anyone also approaching the door. Chivalry is deciding what a woman will eat for dinner, without asking, because she should be grateful you’re so manly.

What Irish Pop is describing is, to my ears, not chivarly, but respect and care for the woman he loves. Chivarly is a concept that can’t die fast enough. Good manners, basic respect, THAT’s what we should be aiming for.

OY VEHApril 11th, 2011 at 12:03 pm

P.S. Addendum:

How many times have we seen guys whine about having to pay for dinner? They ask a woman for a date, but expect her to pay for herself. Why? Because chivalry is the consolation prize for equality.

It was fine to hold doors, pay for dinner, etc., when women were powerless and had limited choices. But, as women have strived for, and gained to a modest degree, more power and more choices, men stopped being “chivalrous”.

Chivalry is a meager consolation prize for equality.

Irish PopApril 11th, 2011 at 12:30 pm

Oh for heaven sake, really?

“Its about showing off to other men about how good you are, because you deign to be nice to those beneath you (i.e. women). It’s benevolent sexism, which is by definition condescending.”

Really, by whose definition? By your definition then, I don’t do it out of respect, even though you claim that my “performance” is just that, by your definition even if my intentions are nothing but good I am still just “showing off”. Must people who have a proclivity for these common courtesies, do the common ones such as holding and opening doors for both men and women. I see it every day, so why even claim that people don’t?

Even when looking at the etymology of the word it you can see the definition and actions behind the word have changed throughout time, so who’s to say that it’s condescending behavior? The answer is, “someone who wants it to be”. Too many people spend their life looking for a reason to be offended, and the more you look, the more it happens.

So I respectfully disagree, what I was describing was not just respect for the women I love, it was chivalry for all women to the degree in which I interact with them. If you don’t see it that way, so be it, you’re entitled to your opinion and I don’t mind if you say so, but don’t redefine what I’m describing to better suit your opinion. If a lady I hold the door for is offended by my gesture, so be it, but that becomes her problem not mine. I acted within my nature with pure intentions, and that intention is chivalry, not sexism.

zomboidApril 11th, 2011 at 1:25 pm

@BilboBaggins
she was saying SHE left a 25% tip before fleeing, for the ‘poor server’ who the guy was intending to leave a 10% tip for, although 10% is perfectly reasonable. 25% is ridiculous.

RepublicApril 11th, 2011 at 2:09 pm

I agree with Oy Veh, chivalry should be replaced with good manners and general respect for everybody. I DON’T want to be treated like a princess Irish Pop, don’t think that every woman wants that. I want to be treated with genuine respect as it applies.

To be treated like a princess is kind of undermining, it’s like looking down on the woman as though she were a child- get her candy because that makes her smile. I’d rather a guy where we can build each other, rather than him treat me like his prized poodle as though I have nothing of value to offer to the relationship. The life argument doesn’t work either, life needs both a man and a woman, and not all woman want to be mothers but that doesn’t mean they’re not respectable people.

Also…
“my father taught me one thing when it came to ladies, and that was to treat every lady in your life as if they were a “princess” ”

The general connotations of princesses are spoilt brats that are easily pleased and never have to lift a finger. To truly love someone is to not see them under one huge umbrella group and play it by numbers; it’s to know them individually in relation to you (not the world), know what they feel, and to be able to still respect them isolated from everything else. It’s possible to love and respect a woman without all these frivolous outdated ‘rules’ that apply the 18th century to the 21st.

RepublicApril 11th, 2011 at 2:12 pm

^ and IMHO that’s a much deeper kind of love and respect

StephRApril 11th, 2011 at 7:23 pm

Yeah I dunno about chivalry. I just like good manners. I treat people with good manners, I teach my stepkids good manners. I mean, what is “chivalry” anyway?! Does it even apply to the modern age? I can’t think of a single example of “chivalry” that wouldn’t just be plain old good manners.

I have a great partner who treats me with the utmost respect, regardless of where we might be.
I will never fault anyone for opening my door or pouring my wine. Relax, enjoy. Life is short.

blahApril 11th, 2011 at 9:16 pm


…douchebag on a bike. and yeah some men are that oblivious. they think just cuz they have a dingdong, and women don’t, all women want them. just like they want boobs cuz they don’t have some of their own LOL :p

Irish PopApril 12th, 2011 at 5:00 am

See, I can’t argue with you on that if you think that chivalry is not good manners. The intent of true chivalry is just that, it’s just been bastardized by malcontent. Who says that I (and others in general) don’t use good manners when dealing with others? As I said, I hold the door for anyone, I say “pardon me”, I (and many) offer seats to elderly, handicapped, ladies and parents with children…chivalry was not meant to be confined to just women, it’s original intent was manners.

Even your statement saying you don’t want to be treated like a princess and that you want to be treated with genuine respect is insulting. It implies that I don’t genuinely respect women and that I am automatically condescending because I treat women that way. That, as I stated, becomes your problem not mine if you can’t handle a person treating you respectfully without thinking that they are demeaning you, then you need to work on your game, not me.

As it “applies”, is understood, if you are a complete bitch to me then don’t expect me to treat you with courtesy, all manners go out the window. “Princess” is just a word used to distinguish a lady from say, treating my “elderly” with respect. It’s not meant to mean that you are an actually princess or a little girl pretending to be a princess. I don’t go around calling anyone “princess” other than my daughter and it’s because she wears her little dress-up gowns and pretends to be one.

To say that being treated with respect and good manners by a man is undermining, to me, is ridiculous, how do you expect to be treated given that you are deserving of good manners? Does a man opening a door for you really distinguish that man as a condescending asshole? Does pulling your chair out really make you feel like he thinks you’re inadequate? Sounds to me like you need to work on your self-esteem then sister…

“I’d rather a guy where we can build each other, rather than him treat me like his prized poodle as though I have nothing of value to offer to the relationship”

Where did I say that if I act with chivalry that you must act pompous and pampered and pay me no respect? You’re inferring a lot from simple good mannered behavior. I don’t treat my wife like a prize poodle, and she sure as hell doesn’t act like one. She’s the mother of my children and she is the greatest woman in my life and I treat her with respect, not as a dog. I hold the door for a dog because they can’t do it themselves. I hold the door for my wife because I respect her.

As for the “life” argument…yes it does work for men, because we don’t have to bear the labor of child birth. We provide a seed and we can walk away. As for not every woman “wanting” to be a mother, but them deserving respect….come on now, did I say that only those that “have” or “will” be mothers? I said that I, as a man, recognize the gift that woman give this world, not individual women, but women in general. That was a weak attempt to diminish a very really distinction between men and women.

And then you go from the birth argument to this…

“The general connotations of princesses are spoilt brats that are easily pleased and never have to lift a finger.”

…just because my father taught me to respect women? Did I mention giving birth, raising kids, love comfort, companionship, sharing responsibilities (in and out of the house), etc…? How in the hell is that “not lifting a finger”? You’ve remove every valid statement of equality I made and only used two words to try to tear down my view…”chivalry” and “princess”.

“To truly love someone is to not see them under one huge umbrella group and play it by numbers; it’s to know them individually in relation to you (not the world), know what they feel, and to be able to still respect them isolated from everything else. It’s possible to love and respect a woman without all these frivolous outdated ‘rules’ that apply the 18th century to the 21st.”

No shit, really? Thanks for the lesson in love…now I can go home and take my wife’s food bowls off the floor and let her join the men at the table. How fucking condescending is this statement? Somehow because I treat my wife, and others, with respect and manners I don’t know how to view them as an individual? Do you treat your kids as children? If so, are you unable to view them as individuals because you see them as children? Do you treat your “man” like a man…is it hard to distinguish him from every other man?

What kind of dipshit comment is treating deserved women with respect means you can’t bond with any of them on an individual level? These are not “rules”, they are “manners”, if it really bothers you that much; next time a man holds the door for you in public, I beg you to tell him to fuck-off for his gesture. Tell him not to act so condescendingly to you and make sure everyone around you hears you say it. Explain your need to not be treated like a “prize poodle”…I’m pretty sure any guy, with some self-esteem, would tell you to ”go fuck yourself” and everyone around would applaud him for doing so.

I apologize for this coming off so harsh, I mean no real disrespect (other than thinking your argument is ridiculous), but it’s insulting to have you ignore the basic message of love and respect for my wife and diminish it to “pampered princess” and “prize poodle” and act as if I can’t truly “know” or “love” my wife because I act with such manners to other women – and people in general – as well. Seriously, all you heard were those two words…”princess” and “poodle”.

Irish PopApril 12th, 2011 at 5:02 am

I also apologize for the length. I know this is getting old and I won’t carry on anymore, feel free to have the last word, I’ve said too much alredy.

StephRApril 12th, 2011 at 5:49 am

It’s ok, you don’t have to apologize for your length, IP.

Irish PopApril 12th, 2011 at 6:16 am

You haven’t seen it yet…it’s awaiting moderation still.

It sounds we’re talking abot my penis…we’re not talking about my penis, right?

Irish PopApril 12th, 2011 at 6:17 am

*like

OY VEHApril 12th, 2011 at 10:47 am

“Really, by whose definition?”

Read basically anything about the origins of chivarly. It was a way for knights (and other upper class men) to show off to each other.

“I mean no real disrespect (other than thinking your argument is ridiculous), ”

You’re arguing with strawmen anyway. None of us said even part of what you’ve attributed to us. But, it’s really not a big deal. I think your argument is ridiculous too. But, to each their own. There’s no reason to apologize for having a different opinion.

hellcatApril 12th, 2011 at 10:51 am

I think that chivalry is good in that treating everyone with basic courtesy and respect is good. I think the argument comes in when you’re saying that women are all special snowflakes who deserve better treatment because of our gender. I know it sounds weird to people like IrishPop who are legitimately doing it to be polite, kind and courteous, so hear me out before jumping to defenses:

I don’t think that getting mad at men who hold the door open for you is the answer, nor is decrying them as sexist, because you’re punishing people whose intentions are for the most part good. My husband holds the door for me and carries my groceries because he’s cool like that, but he also asks for my help when he’s writing papers because he respects my intellect. It doesn’t HAVE to be a condescending thing.

However, you have to understand that there are some women who find it distasteful, and it’s not because they’re shrews who hate men. It’s really just this: most women want to be valued and respected on the basis of their whole unique selves, including their thoughts and actions and achievements and everything else that makes a person who they are. Just saying “I respect all women, period, because of their gender” sort of takes away from that in a way that I don’t know if I can explain. It’s like if we were playing ping pong and the guy I’m playing against lets me win because he is being chivalrous. But the thing is, I’m really good at ping pong. I WANT to prove myself; I want to show that I have a skill here. But I can’t if it’s just handed to me.

Anyway, I think it’s ridiculous if you’re walking around with a chip on your shoulder because a dude offered to carry your bag for you. But I also think there’s some validity to the point that the idea that all women deserve respect just on the basis of womanhood can take away from the (vastly different) achievements of individual women and make us feel babied, when all most of us want is a shot to prove ourselves.

StephRApril 12th, 2011 at 12:26 pm

Amen Sistah Hellcat!

MissChrisApril 12th, 2011 at 1:26 pm

Irish Pop, I find your argument valid, and well thought out. My husband is also chivalrous and I love it. We are raising our son to treat all women as princesses, and our daughter to appreciate such attention. We don’t believe that princesses are brats that can’t/won’t do for themselves, and we’re teaching our daughter to do just fine on her own.

Maybe it’s a Southern thing in our case, but I was raised to be thankful of any extra kindnesses, not to expect it, but to be grateful when it does happen.

Irish PopApril 13th, 2011 at 7:20 am

@MissChris – thank you, it’s just general manners in my opinion.

@Hellcat –That makes perfect sense, had it been clearly stated that way it would have been easier to ascertain. Though, as I stated, I don’t view women as frailer and unequal…it’s just manners. I play poker with my wife and play to win, though she’s a great player so too often I don’t…I toss the football and baseball with my wife and I don’t worry about her not catching it or me throwing too hard. I don’t think it’s chivalry that is the problem; it’s the old school notion that women are the fairer of the sexes that have people like OY and Republic up in arms. They’ve chosen “chivalry” as a scapegoat for male chauvinistic mentality. With that said, once again, you’re explanation is much less ambiguous, thank you.

@OY – Straw man, it is manners, pure and simple; there is no “straw man” in me describing the actions as good mannered. Hell, “pampered poodle” and “giving candy to a princess” is straw man. Come on, and then you say that “most every definition describes it as “Knights showing off”, that’s your interpretation of definitions.

I can read wiki too, and if you’re going to go that far, is owning a horse considered condescending too? It was a way for a Knight to display manners, and that’s after the church redefined “chivalry”. The manners displayed were not just for women…but towards all. So if you’re going to use the 1600’s version of the definition it works better in my favor. It would have been better to use the 1800-1970 interpretation; it may have been a better argument. And given Hellcat’s clarification I may have conceded.

Irish PopApril 13th, 2011 at 7:21 am

Aughh – “Well mannered”

DynamiteJuly 6th, 2011 at 8:47 pm

what I dont get how half of the ops who complain about having a bad date don’t stand up for their selves. screw any of this happening to me. I wouldn’t let a date get that far.

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